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liz95688 badge: Community Member

bagel making

I am making bagels and the water bath calls for NON diastatic malt powder and I have diastatic malt powder. Will what I have work or not?

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liz95688
  • Reply by liz95688 on January 23, 2012 at 1:30 pm
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it should say that "I have diastatic malt powder".

ZenSojourner

They're not the same. The NON type is basically a sweetener, you can use barley malt syrup instead.

The diastatic has enzymes in it that affect how the yeast works and how the dough rises.

You could use some honey or sugar if you don't have barley malt syrup either.

liz95688
  • Reply by liz95688 on January 23, 2012 at 1:43 pm
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thank you so much!

Jock
  • Reply by Jock on January 23, 2012 at 2:23 pm
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Zen, I may be wrong but I think you may have misread the original question which is, will diastatic malt work in the water bath, not the dough.

The answer is, I don't know. It does seem to me though, to be a bit of a waste of good diastatic malt powder. The malt in the water bath is for aesthetics only; it gives the bagels that nice shiny coat. Your bagels will turn out just as good without it. I put a tablespoon or so of baking soda in the water to make it a little alkali and that works well enough. I tried an experiment one time where I boiled half a batch of bagels in plain water - nothing added. I added the baking soda to the water and boiled the second half of the batch. The only difference I could detect was the color. The ones boiled in plain water were pale and would't darken up. The ones boiled in the soda water were a nice deep golden brown, like a bagel sould be. The taste and texture were the same.

I believe in commercial operations (those that still boil their bagels and don't steam them) they add lye to the water to raise the PH value.

Jock

ZenSojourner

"I am making bagels and the water bath calls for NON diastatic malt powder and I have diastatic malt powder. Will what I have work or not?"

That's the specific question. My answer was "no, they're different and here's why you can't use one for the other, but here's what you can use instead".

Because people don't like to use lye in the water bath (which is more of a pretzel thing, or, let me rephrase that, *I* am more familiar with doing pretzels this way) there are various ways to get around that, one of which is adding a bit of sugar to the boiling water. The other is to add baking soda, or, better yet (for recipes that would normally call for lye in the water), baked baking soda for boiling pretzels (and maybe bagels too)

Jock
  • Reply by Jock on January 23, 2012 at 7:00 pm
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I'm sorry Zen, I think it must be my day to be obtuse :-)

I know that diastatic and non-diastatic malts have different effects on the dough, but we're not talking about the dough here, we are talking aout the water bath. What difference would they make in the water bath do you think?

Jock

ZenSojourner

Mostly the sugar, barley malt syrup, or NON diastatic malt powder just help with the color of the bagel. Baking soda or baked baking soda approximates a lye bath without the dangers of actual lye!

And don't worry, EVERY day is my day to be obtuse! If I had a mind like a sieve, it would be an improvement - at least I could hold on to a few big chunks then!

Mike Nolan
  • Reply by Mike Nolan on January 23, 2012 at 7:28 pm
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Since diastatic malt is primarily a dough enhancer, to encourage yeast growth, putting it in the water, which the dough only touches for minute or two, long after it has risen, seems pointless.

You can use non-diastatic malt (a sweetener) in the water, or barley malt syrup, or honey, or table sugar, or molasses, plus some baking soda and salt. (I've even used malted milk powder in the boiling water once, just to see if it made much difference. It didn't.)

mrscindy
  • Reply by mrscindy on January 23, 2012 at 9:50 pm
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Well, liz95688, what did you do and what happened? Inquiring minds want to know!

~Cindy

RonB
  • Reply by RonB on January 24, 2012 at 6:49 am
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I just made Ciril Hitz's bagels last week. He called for 1/3 c honey and 2 qt water for the bath. No mention of baking soda. Would the bs add more shine, and how much should I add to the water.
BTW, these were the best I have made except that I didn't make the holes big enough, so they came out with no religion. They were not holy...winking0047 Free Emoticons Winking
Ron

ZenSojourner

I don't know, Ron, I've only come across it used for pretzels. It does add more shine for pretzels, I assume it would do similar for bagels - but wouldn't it make the bagel more pretzel-y than bagel-y? I don't know, bagels aren't really my "thing" though I'd like them to be.

Mike Nolan
  • Reply by Mike Nolan on January 24, 2012 at 11:32 am
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I usually use 2 tablespoons of baking soda, one tablespoon of salt, and about two tablespoons of barley syrup or honey.

Using more baking soda than that doesn't seem to have much additional impact.

Jock
  • Reply by Jock on January 24, 2012 at 2:17 pm
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That's about what I use. Baking soda, that is. I don't add anything else although I plan to add some malt powder next time just to see what, if any, difference it makes.

1/2 a gallon of water seems hardly enough to me! I would think more is better. When you add the bagels to the water you want it to come back to a boil ASAP and more water means a faster recovery time. I get out my biggest pot and fill it almost full. 3 or 4 bagels at a time and it only takes seconds to come back to a boil. Just a thought.

Jock

RonB
  • Reply by RonB on January 24, 2012 at 7:10 pm
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Thanx ZS, Mike, and Jock. You you all know, baking is a < (fun), journey. One that I will never complete. character00201 Free Emoticons Characters So almost every bake is a learning experience that I look forward to. That makes figuring out all this stuff is a pain and fun at the same time...jumping0002 Free Emoticons Jumping

As to the amount of water - to me, it seems there is a ratio of water to whatever ingredients are added. The more water you use, the more "stuff" you need to add to create the proper ratio, so I suspect the amount of water Hitz recommends is a compromise. I can't see using 16 oz of honey to make a doz bagels.

Ron

Mike Nolan
  • Reply by Mike Nolan on January 24, 2012 at 7:12 pm
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You want around 4 inches of water in the pan, over that you're using a lot more energy to heat the water, even if that does mean a faster recovery time.