• Reply by GinaG on February 10, 2012 at 7:48 pm
• 

Hello Sheila!

There are tutorials on the KAF website, as well as YouTube and some of my favorites I will list as well via links, but my question for you would be, what KIND of bread would you like to make?

If you are just starting out, apparently it is better to start with a sandwich bread. I say apparently because that's what everyone says, but it isn't the way I and some others did it: We did it butt-backwards by starting out with what people normally work their way up to.

So, tell me: What kind of bread?

Here are my favorite places:

WWW.Wildyeastblog.com

WWW.Northwestsourdough.com

WWW.Breadtopia.com

WWW.Thefreshloaf.com

Also, as previously mentioned, You Tube has a plethora of instruction videos as does WWW.monkeysee.com

Also, you have a number of us on this forum to walk you through, it has been done.

~GinaG.

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• Reply by frick on February 10, 2012 at 8:13 pm
• 

I'm glad Gina had some video sites to suggest. I was looking around for just that. I assume you've already made bread at least a few times. Are you using a stand mixer, by hand only, or are you lucky enough to have a bread machine? Rising (or proofing) dough at this time of year does take either more time, because our homes are really too cool, or some assistance. That would be:

1 - in an oven no warmer than 100 (80 F being best). An oven that has a pilot light is great but most of us don't have that any more.
2 - in a microwave with a cup of hot water to boost the temp and moisture a little (do not turn on the microwave with the dough in there)
3 - in a proofing box with a cup of hot water. Many of us use a plastic sweater box. Remember, the box itself is not food safe, but your dough will not be touching it.
4 - on top of the frig if that is where it vents
5 - on a rack set over, not ON, a heating pad set on low
6 - someone said, wherever your cat wants to sleep (cause that's the warmest spot in the house).

Watching those videos will help tremendously. Bear in mind that proofing dough just takes patience, frequently more than is stated in recipes. Time is a guideline, not an ultimatum.

There are many good recipes to be had here but this is the one I have used forever. It makes a very light, faintly sweet white sandwich bread, or dinner rolls. One pound of each. It's a good bread for a beginner, tasty and easy and keeps well due to the milk and honey.

Sandwich Bread, or Dinner Rolls

1 1/2 cups milk (I use 2%)
4 1/4 cups bread flour
2 tbsp sugar or honey
2 tbsp butter
2 tsp salt
2 tsp yeast (I use SAF Red)

I make this dough in the Zo. After completing the dough cycle, remove this moderately soft dough from the pan and divide in half, each half weighing about 17 ounces. For pull apart rolls, butter or spray two 9-inch cake pans. Divide each half into 12 portions and shape into rolls, placing 12 rolls in each pan, or use one portion for a one pound loaf. Let rise, covered, until doubled. Bake at 350 F. for 20 to 25 minutes, rotating after the first 10 to 12 minutes. If desired, remove them from the pan and place back in the oven to lightly brown the bottom.

Loaf Variation

One half of dough (or both) may be shaped for loaf. After shaping, and panning, let rise, covered til doubled. Bake at 350 in well-greased 8" X 4" loaf pan for 25 to 30 minutes, rotating half way through baking.

NOTE: Traditional directions say to scald your milk, then let it cool before adding it to the recipe, to avoid enzymatic activity which could damage the yeast. I have never done this. Maybe I'm just lucky, or maybe the milk here is different, but I buy many different brands, from Safeway, Kroger, Trader Joe's, etc. and this recipe never fails. I made it last night.

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• Reply by mrscindy on February 10, 2012 at 8:35 pm
• 

Frick, that's an interesting comment about scalding the milk. Here lately I've been hearing about how you really SHOULD scald the milk, and years ago, when using different yeast, I did scald the milk. But, since getting my Zo, 10 years ago, I have stopped scalding the milk. I just thought it was because of the preheat cycle, but now I realize I just stopped doing it. I, like you, have never had a loaf fail because of not scalding the milk.

~Cindy

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• Reply by placebo on February 10, 2012 at 10:32 pm
• 

KAF's hearth bread is probably the easiest loaf of bread you can make.

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/hearth-bread-recipe

KAF's classic white sandwich bread is pretty easy too, and it tastes great. There's a blog entry on how to make it, so you can see what to expect at each step.

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/king-arthurs-classic-white-sandwi...

If you have a bread machine or a mixer, I'd suggest using it to mix and knead the dough. That'll remove any question of whether your hand kneading is deficient in some way. When it comes out of the machine or mixer, knead it a bit by hand to get a feel for what the dough should feel like.

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• Reply by ZenSojourner on February 13, 2012 at 9:48 pm
• 

I've never scalded milk either but all my loaves are white, or at most half WW these days. I used to make a WW loaf in my old bread machine lo these many moons ago, but I've lost the recipe and haven't made it in years. It was a bit dense but so tasty it made up for it, and I always assumed the density was due to making it in the bread machine.

I've been told that the more WW or rye, etc, type of flours, in your loaf, the more likely it is that scalding milk will make a difference in the loft of the loaf. Do you guys bake much with whole grains?

Wondering what practical experience has been for you guys, if you use the whole grains ...

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• Reply by frick on February 14, 2012 at 1:00 pm
• 

Zen, I don't cook with whole grains that much. In general, most recipes with whole grains call for water and I usually follow those directions. I don't know about buttermilk. I really should try to use buttermilk more often, analyse and compare . . .

It's easy to see I'm no scientist (you may laugh here), but scalding is to destroy enzymes that are detrimental to yeast activity, and have nothing to do with what type flours you use. I wonder if pasteurization essentially replaces scalding today? I know it's anathema to bread baking to add more yeast but isn't that a possible solution in whole grain recipes? Just askin' . . .

I would hate anyone's bread to fail because they didn't scald the milk. I just said I never do and it doesn't seem to matter.

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• Reply by skeptic7 on February 14, 2012 at 3:35 pm
• 

Scalding really makes a difference with all whole wheat bread. I found that whole wheat english muffins made with milk that had been heated in the microwave but not scalded didn't rise as well as milk that had been properly scalded ( 180 degrees for 3 minutes ). If you really don't want to scald use the special Baker's dry milk instead.
Scalding doesn't make much difference with all white flour breads, but these aren't as delicate and rise better than the whole wheat breads/

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• Reply by ZenSojourner on February 14, 2012 at 4:24 pm
• 

It's actually not a protease which is the problem, it's glutathione, which is a peptide. It inhibits gluten formation, which is the thing that actually matters.

Whole wheat and other whole grain flours ALREADY have compromised ability to form gluten compared to AP flours, so the effect is more dramatic in doughs made with significant portions of whole grain flours.

From Cookwise:

"Bread recipes in old cookbooks advise you to scald the milk before using it in a bread. I thought this heat was taken to kill some enzyme in the milk and that modern pasteurization had made scalding unnecessary. I had also heard that after running tests on scalded and unscalded milk a food magazine staff concluded that it made no difference.

I did notice when I was developing the Honey Whole Wheat Loaf recipe, however, that an increase in the nonfat dry milk to 1/2 cup significantly reduced the bread volume. Attributing this to the sugar in the milk. I was then amazed to read in a professional baking book, "It has long been known in the are that nonfat dry milk seriously affects the volume, symmetry, cellular structure, and texture of bread when used as such. Research by prior investigators has found that such nonfat milk, when heat treated by holding it at about 180°F to 190°F over a period of time, overcomes this undesirable property to a certain degree when it is used in the conventional system of bread-making."

When I delved into the literature on the subject, I found that in 1975 two Michigan State University researchers, T. Volpe and M.E. Zabik, isolated a protein in the whey that was responsible for this reduced volume and poor texture. Unfortunately it is present in nonfat dry milk as well as fresh. I believe that the amount of this protein is the key to whether it will harm the bread--that would explain why less than 1/2 cup nonfat dry milk had no ill effects on my bread. I imagine you will find that it does not matter in some recipes, but it may in others. "

Scalding, not scalding, in my recipes it doesn't make any difference. I surmise that it WOULD make a difference in recipes that use a higher amount of dairy product (more than about 1/3 c) or in breads that use a higher proportion of whole grains, where gluten formation is more problematic to start with. In the (few) reports from others I've seen regarding this issue, that surmise does seem to have some support; I was wondering about the experience of people on this list, since I rarely bake breads with a lot of whole grains or a high amount of dairy.

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• Reply by ZenSojourner on February 14, 2012 at 4:28 pm
• 

That's the other thing I've been wondering about - is 3 minutes enough then? The only places I've seen the time to hold at 180F stated 10 to 15 mins - which seems like an AWFULLY long time to have to do that with 1/2 c of milk or so! Plus the loss due to evaporation would start to get significant.

Do you do it in the microwave, or stove top? I've seen some people state they "scald" in the microwave but that seems like it would be difficult to control or verify that scalding temperatures have actually been reached without actually boiling it.

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• Reply by skeptic7 on February 14, 2012 at 6:35 pm
• 

I was wrong about scalding milk. According to Harold McGee "On Food and Cooking" page 305, its 198 degrees for 1 minute, or 185 degrees for 7 minutes. I find I lose more to evaporation if I try to keep it hot to long, I bring it to boiling or just under, use a thermometer, and then turn off the fire and let it cool in the pan. I do it in a pan on the stove.
I used to think I was scalding it by heating briefly in the microwave but found that the dough didn't turn out well. So now I only do it in the pan. Possibly if I heated in the microwave and used a thermometer to make sure it reached the higher temperature that might work, but I have not tried it. The loss due to evaporation is significant. Either measure after scalding or measure again and top off the liquid with water.
I've never scalded yogurt or buttermilk, assuming the fermentation process would destroy the enzyme. Does anyone know if this is true?

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