percentage of glutin

kaf-sub-lapensee

Could someone tell me the percnetage of glutin on Ka flours??

badge posted by: kaf-sub-lapensee on September 10, 2012 at 7:01 pm in General discussions
tags: gluetin
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reply by: KAF_Frank on September 10, 2012 at 7:59 pm
KAF_Frank

Hi,
You'll find the protein percentage on the individual flour's page, just scroll down a bit. Frank @ KAF.

reply by: KitchenBarbarian aka Zen on September 10, 2012 at 9:33 pm
KitchenBarbarian aka Zen

It's listed here

Sir Galahad = All Purpose (11.7% protein)
Special Spring Patent Flour = Bread (12.7% protein)
Sir Lancelot = High Gluten (14.2% protein)
Queen Guinevere = cake flour (8% and bleached with chlorine bleach)

The only things not listed here are some of the specialty flours, and it is really hard to find the protein content for those. I can't find it "scrolling down" as Frank suggested - wherever "scrolling down" will work, I don't have a link to it.

I wish they'd just give us a table or a list like the one above. Last time I checked, I had to find the product information to find the protein information, and I don't remember how I did that anymore, except that it involved loading a PDF file for each individual type of flour.

The way it is now (from the "our flours" link) is really confusing, I click on "more information" and instead of getting more information, I get a PR blurb with no info re actual wheat type used or protein, it's just a popup that sounds like an ad.

Frankly I've given up trying to find the information as every time I figure it out, it changes, and every change makes it harder for me to find.

Heck, the last time I went looking for info on the AP flour, I couldn't find anything that told me what kind of wheat it was made from, and when I asked on the forums, I was told it is a MIXTURE of 2 types of wheat - yet when I look at "more info" from the "our flours" link, it now says it is ONE type of wheat, and the link to the professional flours says specifically "Milled entirely from premium hard red winter wheat" - which is what I thought to start with!

Then when I asked about it to be sure, nobody ever answered.

C'mon, guys, I have enough problems with my memory - don't fool around with me like this! I was starting to think I'd IMAGINED thinking it was milled from 100% hard red winter wheat!

PLEASE give us a nice easy table with all this info in it - all the popups and multiple links do is fix it so people can't find the info easily and either give up or post here asking - because they can't find it! *I* can't find it either anymore!

reply by: Mike Nolan on September 10, 2012 at 10:07 pm
Mike Nolan

Don't try to infer protein content from the nutritional content statement, because it has major rounding issues due to the fact that quantities are rounded to whole grams and the unit size is around 30 grams.

I hate to get on this particular soapbox again, but I keep hearing rumors that the government is going to issue a new nutritional statement format that, as far as I can tell, will be even less useful for things like flour.

reply by: KitchenBarbarian aka Zen on September 10, 2012 at 10:21 pm
KitchenBarbarian aka Zen

No, no, no, Mike, this was the product information published by King Arthur, which isn't just the nutritional information blurb required by law to be printed on the side panel of the flour packaging.

I'd give you a link to one so you could see but I don't know how to find them anymore, or if they're even still on the website.

These were PDF files of 2 or 3 pages in length that had the actual protein content listed as well as some other information pertinent to that particular flour. When I say protein content, I mean protein content - like 11.7% or whatever. Not "x grams of protein per 1/4c serving". That's the NUTRITIONAL information panel, I'm talking about product information.

C'mon dude, you know me better than that, don't you? Give me SOME credit.

reply by: Mike Nolan on September 11, 2012 at 1:00 am
Mike Nolan

I figured you knew it, I wasn't sure everybody reading this thread in the future would know it. No offense intended!

I haven't spent a lot of time on the KAF store since the new webstore came out, I know in the past it wasn't easy to find protein content on every type of flour they sell.

reply by: GinaG on September 11, 2012 at 1:17 am
GinaG

I think what Frank means by scrolling down is to first select the flour in which you are interested, then scroll down a bit and you'll find a detailed description with the protein content.

I was just scrutinizing the different flours when I recently placed an order for three bags of Sir Lancelot: LOOooooove the stuff, BTW...

I'm grateful KAF gives such detailed information as the protein content and the specific types of wheat used for each product. I don't like to dilly-dally and search for info when I'm shopping for something I need, so having the information I want right in front of me makes me happy!

reply by: KitchenBarbarian aka Zen on September 11, 2012 at 7:31 am
KitchenBarbarian aka Zen

Not offense, it's just miserable to feel this stupid. I've scrolled and clicked and CANNOT find this information anymore.

Plus there was the whole thread awhile back where somebody from KAF told me the AP flour was a blend of TWO different kinds of wheat (hard red winter and hard red spring I think they said), and I couldn't find the info AT ALL anymore when I went looking for it in the retail blurbs.

Then when I asked for clarification - no answer. Made me think I was losing my mind faster than I thought - I really was starting to think I must have imagined that the AP was 100% hard red winter wheat.

reply by: KitchenBarbarian aka Zen on September 11, 2012 at 9:17 am
KitchenBarbarian aka Zen

This is what I find when I click on "our flours":

There is a slide show of the different flours, with the specialty stuff lumped together under an "other" category at the end.

The main blurb sounds like a short ad, with a customer testimonial (I think that's what it is) tacked on to the end - about 2 sentences total.

For example, this is what it says about the Unbleached AP flour:

Strong enough to make high-rising yeast breads, yet mellow enough to create tender, flaky pie crusts, our All-Purpose Flour is ideal for the full range of your baking repertoire.

“This unbleached flour is by far the best that I have used for baking and I have been baking for more than 40 years. I will always prefer to use King Arthur unbleached flour from now on.”

P. Kokes – Nebraska

No real information there.

If you click "more information, you get a popup that is more of the same. The information many of us are looking for is STILL not there. For example, the popup for the AP flour says:

====================================================================

Strong enough to make high-rising yeast breads, yet mellow enough to create tender, flaky pie crusts, King Arthur Unbleached All-Purpose Flour is the perfect go-to flour for all your baking needs.

Milled from hard red wheat grown in Kansas.

Why you’ll love this flour. Like all of our white flours, our unbleached all-purpose is milled from the innermost heart of the wheat berry, avoiding the dark mineral particles near the bran and germ. The heart of the berry contains the lightest color and the richest, gluten-producing protein. It has the strength to yield high-rising bread dough, yet is mellow enough for tender, flaky pie crusts, moist brownies, and perfect scones.

Getting started. If you only keep one flour in your pantry, this should be it. Just as the name indicates, our unbleached all-purpose flour is the perfect starting point for all of your baking adventures.

Our 100% Organic All-Purpose Flour is grown using certified organic farming methods and milled to the same high standards as our conventional all-purpose flour. It is the nationwide top-selling organic all-purpose flour.

=====================================================================

Now the above only says "hard red wheat" - so now I'm STILL unsure of whether or not the AP flour is still 100% hard red winter wheat, or if it is, indeed, a mixture of hard red winter and hard red SPRING wheats. It USED to be the former, and the Sir Galahad, which I was assured was the same as the AP flour, only in a 50 lb bag, still DOES say it is 100% hard red winter wheat.

Here's where I was told the AP flour is 2 kinds of wheat, yet in the past, and in one of my baking books, the AP flour has been touted as 100% hard red winter wheat and therefore more suitable for baguettes because the hard spring wheat is too high protein and has the wrong proportion of gliadin and glutenin (and possibly different types of these proteins as well, I never delved THAT far into it).

If the AP flour is the same as the Sir Galahad, the Sir Galahad DOES specifically say it is 100% hard red winter wheat.

Yet I can no longer find this information anywhere on the site for the AP flour. I have no idea which is true anymore. So that blurb for the AP flour doesn't really tell us anything substantive, for all the 177 words of it.

Now I click "buy now" - and I see a totally new page that I've never seen before.

NOW I can find some of the info I'm looking for - NOW the "scroll down" makes sense. But it takes reading three different sources to find this information. The new page DOES tell you the protein content - but it isn't easy to get to the new page, and it STILL doesn't tell us whether or not the flour is 100% hard red winter wheat or a mix of the spring and the winter.

I have no objection to having that info there at all. But it would be a lot easier for people to find if the protein content were prominently displayed EVERYWHERE where information is given about the flour. Right on page one on the slideshow; a quick mention again in the popup; and on the shopping page itself. It should also be prominently displayed as part of the product label on this page:

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/ingredients/flours

for which, btw, there is no direct link that I can find. I would EXPECT that the "our flour" link would take you there, and not to that slide show that provides no substantive information. The slide show really needs to go and be replaced with the direct link above, or a more meaningful and less obnoxious to navigate page about flour.

Anyway. Right now protein content information is only to be found on the shopping page for individual flours, which is not easy to get to.

Furthermore, by not having a chart or listing of this info for ALL flours somewhere easily found, we are forced to click on EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL flour to find what we are looking for, if we don't already KNOW what we are looking for.

It's not like having a comparison chart or table available is wasting paper or something. This is the Internet, after all. While I appreciate being able to more easily find this product information on the shopping page itself, why do I have to go there to find it at all? They now no longer provide the information about wheat type anywhere that I can find it AT ALL, except in the professional flour list I gave a link to above. And not all their specialty flours - like the unbleached cake flour blend - have professional bulk equivalents listed there.

Also, there is no consistency about where you find the protein content. For the AP flour, it is listed in the first paragraph on the sales page under the heading "what you get". The heading "more information" has promotional information about famous people who use King Arthur.

But for the cake flour blend, the protein content is listed under "more information". Under the heading "what you get" it now says "Bake a delicious cake, free of added chemicals, with King Arthur Unbleached Cake Flour. 2-pound box."

That's not "what you get" - that's what you DO with what you get.

This kind of lack of consistency, and the segregation of protein content to the sales page where you can only find it by hunting out each and every individual type of flour, results mostly in people getting frustrated and just leaving the site, and secondarily (and the minor portion of frustrated visitors to the website) to open up an account to post the question, only to be told "scroll down and you'll find it".

Sorry, Frank. I'm not being critical of you personally - here's what happens with web design. The people INSIDE the company know where everything is. Because they know where everything is, they don't have to hunt for it. The idea lodges in the back of the brain that it is easy to find, not just for the people who already know where it is, but for EVERYONE. They start to think that NOBODY has to hunt for it.

The biggest problem I used to have with clients Back In The Day when I was doing consulting work for web design was convincing them that the web page wasn't being built FOR THEM, it was being built FOR OTHER PEOPLE.

It's part of why I hated web design - actually it wasn't the design I hated, it was having to deal with people who insisted on having weird convoluted layouts that confused the average (or even the sophisticated) user. Then if I actually GAVE them what they insisted on (sometimes at the top of their lungs) and real users started to complain about not being able to find anything, guess who was supposed to come back and "fix" what I had told them repeatedly NOT TO DO, for FREE?

The current setup here is an example of that kind of thing.

We already know that there is a large contingent of people out there who want to know right off the bat the protein content of the flour. This is TWO WORDS - 11.7% protein. Or 12.7% protein. Etc.

Just put it prominently - NO SCROLLING DOWN - on EVERY page, popup, or product listing for all of the flours. Knowing that the AP flour is 11.7% is WAY more interesting to people than knowing that P. Kokes in Nebraska is a KA fan.

Oh great, I just went and looked at the sales page for the organic bread flour, and there the protein content is listed in yet a THIRD place - under "why we love it".

There is no consistency here at all. It's like going in to a grocery store for bread and sometimes you find it over by the meat department, but next time it's over by the candy, except for the time it was over by the breakfast cereal. Don't you get frustrated?

On some of your product pages you have a header called "dietary information" - on one page all it says is "kosher". On other pages, you don't have the header at all.

You need to narrow those categories down to just 3 or 4. You need to put the same type of information under each header, every time. You need to PROMINENTLY display the protein content everywhere where the flour is so much as mentioned, and you need to put the wheat type used SOMEWHERE.

On this page:

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/ingredients/flours

The product description under each picture of a bag of flour should include the protein content. Each description should either state the weight of the bag, or none of them should state this (my preference is for the former).

The categories on individual pages, if they exist, should be appropriately populated with actual information. For example, your page for Spelt basically says "it's an old type of wheat" and that's it. You have ONE line under each of 4 category headings.

There are lots of things you could say about Spelt, such as:

It's high in gliadin but low in glutenin, which makes for high extensibility (its stretchy) but low elasticity (it doesn't snap back well)

Spelt requires less water than "regular" wheat

It is higher in all amino acids except lysine

Protein ranges from 13% to 14.28%

It has a nutty flavor

People with wheat allergies can frequently tolerate spelt; coeliac sufferers can't.

It makes a lighter, fluffier loaf that doesn't shed as many crumbs

Sub in 10% to 20% spelt for "regular" wheat with these types of modifications

Direct links to recipes using spelt flour on your site, and/or any blog entries where spelt is used.

Assuming any of the information above is actually correct; that's just what I could glean off the internet in a handful of quick searches, from sources that looked fairly reliable (including some journal abstracts). Surely YOU guys know more about spelt than *I* do; how about telling me about it?

I know web design is hard work. These days, I couldn't program my way out of a paper bag. But the most important part of the design should take place BEFORE you put fingers to keyboard anyway, and that's the part that seems to be missing here - presenting the important information right up front, assuring consistency, clearly defining your categories, and making navigation as simple as possible.

I know you guys think I'm an obnoxious gadfly, and maybe I am; that doesn't make me wrong about these kinds of issues though. It has nothing to do with whether or not I like the product, or whether or not I think you guys are nice people (which I happen to do so, btw); it's just a fact that people are not finding the information they want and need, and this is why - there are serious flaws in the overall design of the site as it currently exists. You can't design a large website one page at a time.

reply by: Mike Nolan on September 11, 2012 at 11:25 am
Mike Nolan

OK, I had to go look for myself.

I found protein information for most of KAF's wheat flours, but it wasn't always in the same place on the page (bad design), and there was no protein information listed for the white whole wheat flour and for first clear flour. (I didn't look at every wheat flour, so there could be others.)

Here are some pages I found from other flour mills, although these are sites intended for professional bakers, so perhaps they should be compared to KAF's commercial baker pages as well.

Here's a combined spec sheet for several of King Arthur's commercial flours:

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-...

(Note that there is an entry for white whole wheat flour here.)

I think PJ once said that Sir Galahad is the same as KAF AP flour.

Here's a detailed spec sheet for one type of All Trumps flour:

http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/all-trumps-enriched-h...

And here's one that shows protein content for several types of flours:

http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/flour/brand/gold-medal-hr-all...

I was steered to this site by my neighbor a few years ago when we were looking for a local source for first clear flour in larger sizes than what King Arthur sells. It turned out that first clear flour was only available in the eastern US from his suppliers. Looking through this site today, I don't see any flours labeled as first clear flour. Not sure why.

Ironically, it seems likely that the first clear flour I buy from King Arthur is milled fairly near me, in Kansas. :-)

reply by: KAF_Keri on September 11, 2012 at 11:37 am
KAF_Keri

Zen,

Take a look at these pages:

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/nutritional-analysis-organic...
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/nutritional-analysis-bakery-...

These are the nutritional panels used for the foodservice sized bag. They're based on a 100 gram sample of flour instead of 1/4 cup or whatever you'd find on the side of 5lb bag of flour. This way it shows the actual protein content in relation to the other nutrients, not rounded.

Is this what you were looking for?

~Keri @ KAF

reply by: KitchenBarbarian aka Zen on September 11, 2012 at 1:11 pm
KitchenBarbarian aka Zen

Keri, that is EXACTLY the kind of thing I am talking about.

THAT INFORMATION should be available in a table format (or maybe several tables, putting flour into meaningful categories with one table for each format) for the consumer flour line, and you should get to it easily from the page that "our flours" links to. Although the truth is it probably doesn't HAVE to be that detailed to satisfy your average home baker.

I don't believe I've ever come across those tables before and I have no idea how you got to them, except clearly it was from the commercial rather than the retail side of things. I HAVE seen the one Mike posted before:

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-bakery-flour.html

That is VERY close to what your average home baker (or at least the average home baker who comes to this site) is looking for.

There are 4 categories of information that a baker wants to see right up front (a HOME baker) from that table. These are protein, wheat type, treatment, and enrichment. Ash content ... well ... that's sort of tending toward the total wheat geek side of the equation.

The rest of the info is over into the area of the true wheat geek. If you've got it, displaying it is a good idea, but I'd put the 4 categories above at the top so you see it first. If necessary (for readability) have 2 tables you can choose by selecting a link, the "short story" and the "whole novel by Dostoevsky".

What most people care about (if they care at all) are those 4 things, with protein being the first thing. People who are anti-chemical and anti-additive want to know about treatment, enrichment, and any other additives.

So having THAT information for the consumer line somewhere where it can be EASILY found is what needs to happen.

One easy way to do this without making huge changes to your current design (though honestly it needs a thorough shaking out to separate the wheat from the chaff, as it were) is to keep the slideshow-like thing and use a mouseover - mouseover the particular flour and those 4 pieces of information pop up. Do the same thing on the sales page where all the flours are listed. Heck, you're already using a mouseover there - it just doesn't have any real information in it right now.

Don't make people hunt for it. SHOW it to them. Every time.

A total overhaul of the individual pages and categories thereon still needs to be done so that every single one of those is consistent across the entire consumer line; but it isn't hard to write the code for a mouseover info box with just the protein content, wheat type, treatment, and enrichment info, and then insert it where the consumer will see it every time the user mouses over a bag of flour. You don't even need PHP or Java to do it, it can be done in pure CSS. (I think it's easier and can be made a lot prettier with some kind of script though)

By all means, you need to add links to the individual sales pages to recipes that use that flour, especially the off-beat ones like spelt and extra-fancy durum flour.

BTW, on the "our flours" page - clicking on the individual flour icons at the bottom of the old slideshow doesn't do ANYTHING. So "our flour" is currently not doing anything useful at all for the user, hence you get people posting confused "Where's the BEEF"? kind of questions.

That "our flours" link is very prominently displayed and it is currently totally useless. It doesn't work in FF, it doesn't work in Chrome, and it didn't work in Explorer. I have the latest Chrome, FF14 which is only one version back from current (and FF15 only came out a week or two ago) and I stopped at Explorer 8 because 9 isn't backwards compatible (plus I virtually never use it anyway).

What I would expect to see under "our flours" is a description of your high standards, some historical info, and easy to find links to more information about your different flours in the consumer line. If you want to take them directly into the shop from there, that's fine - as long as they can get to the flour info SOMEHOW. With the proviso that there is some way to access one or more tables where we can do side-by-side comparisons of the consumer flours (of similar types) so we know what the heck we're looking for when we DO get to the shop. Mouseovers that show the 4 most wanted characteristics at the very least, right there under "our flours".

Also, if you do click on the SHOP link, and then you see the OUR FLOURS link still up there, the natural inclination is to click that link thinking you're going to go to a list of the flour available to buy. You don't. It takes you RIGHT out of the shop to a page that currently shows you nothing useful.

That row of links at the top needs to be LESS prominent than the shopping links when you are in the actual shop.

Pull "flour" OUT of the (too long) list of ingredients and put it first in line - it is the one thing people care the most about 90% of the time. THIS iteration of "Flour" needs to draw the eye more than the "our flours" link so people don't accidentally click out of the shop and get frustrated. So make that row of links the larger font compared to the all-site links at the top. One way to help with this is to rename "our flours" to "About our flours" so it's obvious it's informational/historical and not about pricing/shopping, even when you're in the shop.

Once you're actually one level down in the shop most stuff looks pretty good and easy to find, with the links to narrow your categories along the left hand side like that.

BTW, in some places your mouseover is displaying filler instead of meaningful information:

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/publications

the mouseover displays "item title or caption"

Man, don't go live with stuff like this! Just ... don't.

reply by: swirth on September 11, 2012 at 2:11 pm
swirth

So many BCers have liked the info found on this link that I've been using for many years:

http://www.theartisan.net/ProteinComparisons.htm

reply by: kidpizza on September 11, 2012 at 2:57 pm
kidpizza

SWIRTH:
Good morning. Sarah, when all else fails we amatuer home type bakers should learn to be practical. I have learned that "SIMPLICITY IS OF THE ESSENCE"...always!!! We should not be looking for trouble.
Unfortunately some of us forget their place (We here are not european formally trained in the culinary arts)

Sarah I enjoyed your chart.
Enjoy the rest of the day my friend.

~SECRET PAL.