• Reply by sandra Alicante on February 22, 2012 at 1:08 pm
• 

As a Brit, I can't comment on recipe proportions as I'm not used to quarts!

For warm water, just about warm to feel if you put a finger in. Air temp - somewhere around the 70'sF - warm enough to be T shirt wearing.

If your recipe is right (although not sure yeast amount is - looks a bit low?) my cake yeast uses 28g for 500g flour...is your yeast fresh?

sandrascookbook.com

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• Reply by Mike Nolan on February 22, 2012 at 2:03 pm
• 

90 degree water should be fine. As to the 'warm place', a temperature in the 80's would probably work well.

How does the dough feel? Is it doubling in a reasonable amount of time (like 90 minutes?)

1 package of yeast for 8 cups (2 quarts) of flour is probably a bit on the low side, but given enough time it should work.

I'd be more concerned that you may have too much flour, your dough should be soft, not stiff.

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• Reply by mrscindy on February 22, 2012 at 10:37 pm
• 

Are you weighing or measuring your ingredients? The recipe SEEMS to be in proper proportions, but it looks, IMHO, to be low on yeast and butter. If you have tried this recipe a couple of times with little or no success, then I would try another recipe.

The best yeasted rolls I have ever had/baked are from MrsM's recipe. Her recipe is listed in member recipes. If you would like to try it, let me know and I will get the link for you. Or you could use Moomie's buns recipe and form as rolls. Those are also great rolls!

~Cindy

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• Reply by skeptic7 on February 23, 2012 at 7:08 am
• 

The proportions seem fine to me, a little low on eggs and butter so its a lean dough.
How much flour did you end up using? The recipe asks for only enough flour to make a workable but soft dough.
It sounds like your dough isn't rising enough. Did you have any problems getting the dough to rise until double the first time? Did you let it rise until a finger pressed into the dough wouldn't bounce back? What about the last rise? Did the rolls double in size?
I find yeast rolls work best with a wetter dough than loaf pans. The rolls dry out faster during the last rise. I let them do the last rise in a covered plastic box with a pan of hot water to add moisture.

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• Reply by BakerIrene on February 23, 2012 at 8:24 am
• 

You need to use unbleached flour (bread flour if you can find it). Makes a BIG difference for bread.

Your recipe has TOO MUCH flour for this amount of milk.

Make sure your yeast is fresh--do NOT buy the little packages in the grocery store. Buy a jar of Fleischmanns if you don't want to buy a pound of yeast. Store all yeast in the fridge in a glass jar (recycled jam jar works OK). Use 1 tablespoon yeast here.

The rest of your recipe is just fine. You can use salad oil (I use corn or peanut) for the dough and for the bowl. You can add the butter to the hot milk to save melting it separately.

This should take 3 hours to rise the first time, partly because of the total amount of the dough. Second rise will be about 45 minutes, and you can put the first pan of buns into the cold oven just before you turn it on.

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• Reply by laswanson87 on February 24, 2012 at 1:22 am
• 

I'd gladly take the link for that recipe. Yes I measured everything right. I'm beginning to doubt the recipe despite it's reviews. Also I was having trouble getting the dough to rise. I think I made it too dry, it got really stiff and hard to work with and seemed like it didn't want to rise.

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• Reply by laswanson87 on February 24, 2012 at 1:20 am
• 

Holy cow! Almost four hours? No wonder I had so much trouble, I went by the directions and only took about half that time. I thought it seemed like a bit too much flour... So the little packets are a no go? Yeah those have been what I was using and I never even thought about sticking the yeast in the fridge. I'll be trying some of that king arthur yeast I think.

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• Reply by laswanson87 on February 24, 2012 at 1:20 am
• 

Holy cow! Almost four hours? No wonder I had so much trouble, I went by the directions and only took about half that time. I thought it seemed like a bit too much flour... So the little packets are a no go? Yeah those have been what I was using and I never even thought about sticking the yeast in the fridge. I'll be trying some of that king arthur yeast I think.

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• Reply by sandra Alicante on February 24, 2012 at 2:43 am
• 

We'll have you knocking out light fluffy buns in no time. You came to the right place for advice!

sandrascookbook.com

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• Reply by mrscindy on February 24, 2012 at 10:18 am
• 

This is the link to MrsM's Best in Show Yeast Rolls. I absolutely LOVE them!

http://community.kingarthurflour.com/node/5698

Try them and see what you think.

Oh, and get some yeast in a jar. Toss those little packets!

~Cindy

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• Reply by Mike Nolan on February 24, 2012 at 10:23 am
• 

BTW, if some of the advice you get here seems conflicting, that's not always the case, it's just that often there are multiple things to try to improve your bread.

You should try only one or two suggestions at a time, otherwise you might not know what worked and what didn't.

Make a checklist of the things you try as part of your bread-making notebook.

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• Reply by mrscindy on February 24, 2012 at 4:44 pm
• 

It suddenly occurred to me that you misunderstood my question. When I asked if you measured or weighed your ingredients, you answered that you 'measured everything right'. That wasn't my question. Did you measure using a measuring cup and teaspoons? Or did you WEIGH the ingredients with a scale?

Many of us have come to realize that the old method of using measuring cups is, in fact, quite inaccurate. The better way to make sure your end results are ALWAYS the same, is to weigh the ingredients using a food scale.

For instance, one cup of flour can MEASURE anywhere from .80 -1.25 of a regular one cup measure, depending on how you scoop the flour out of the canister.

On the other hand, if you weigh the flour, one cup should weigh 4.75 oz every single time. No matter how you scoop it out of the canister. See?

So, did you measure or weigh?

~Cindy

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• Reply by skeptic7 on February 24, 2012 at 7:25 pm
• 

Does accurate measuring make any difference on white bread where the directions say "Add enough flour to make a soft dough" and the implied instructions are "Knead in flour until the dough feels right, like an earlobe?" I sift and measure flour carefully for cookies and cakes and quick breads, but for yeast white breads, I assume I can use 1/6 more or less than the recipe calls for. In this case I thought the recipe as written had too much flour but the cook isn't required to use all of the flour.

Oh not by the way, did the original poster make this by hand or with the aid of a mixer? Its more likely the dough was under kneaded if made by hand and its possible its over kneaded if with a mixer. In either case weak gluten could be the cause of the dense hard rolls.
Another problem could come if the oven is too full. Back in the days before computers when I was in High School, I tried to cook all the rolls at once by filling the whole oven. The heat couldn't move around the oven so the bottoms were cooked and the top raw.

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• Reply by mrscindy on February 24, 2012 at 9:37 pm
• 

Skeptic7, I understand your question. I agree with your interpretation of the recipe. When the recipe says to add enough flour until the dough 'feels' right, it assumes the baker knows HOW it's supposed to feel. The recipe said to 'beat' the ingredients together in a couple of different places. The OP said the dough got pretty stiff. Again, I'm making an assumption here, but I think she used a mixer and PROBABLY added too much flour. Unless she posts back and gets us the information, we are just guessing.

But, you're right, accurate measuring doesn't really make a difference in a recipe that is written like this. But if the cook isn't an experienced bread baker, how are they supposed to know what the dough should feel like? That's the whole reason for giving amounts. When a recipe calls for two quarts or 8 cups of flour, for a novice baker the assumption would be that you should use most of that amount.

~Cindy

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• Reply by sandra Alicante on February 25, 2012 at 3:20 am
• 

Exactly Cindy. Not only that but there is far too great a variation possible in cup measures for a novice to know if it is right or wrong.

sandrascookbook.com

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• Reply by mrscindy on February 25, 2012 at 1:29 pm
• 

That's the single most important reason for encouraging a novice baker to start with a simple, straightforward, recipe. That way everything can be weighed and nothing left to 'feel'. We've ALL been there. Our first venture into the recipe that talks about 'feel' and 'look'. If you have never 'seen' or 'felt' the correct dough, how can you possibly know what you're doing?

Like me and laminated dough. 😳 *sigh*

~Cindy

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• Reply by laswanson87 on February 25, 2012 at 3:29 pm
• 

Hey sorry it took me a minute to get back to everyone. Again thanks for all the advice. I measured by cups and teaspoons for this recipe. I weigh things when a recipe calls for a weight. A lot of the cakes I bake are done by weight. However, this is my first real venture into bread baking and as has been noted I don't know what the heck it is supposed to feel like or what a medium batter bread dough is.

I'm not sure how to convert from a recipe giving volume measurement to using weighted measurements. Do I just look up the standard weight of one cup of flour and weigh the rest? As for the 8 cups, even to me that seemed a bit unreal so I tried to just guess when to stop, I got about 6 and a half in there and decided that that was probably already too much.

I started in a mixer but put the last cup in by hand because my mixer couldn't handle it. I don't know how a dough is supposed to look and feel yet and it's hard to just guess. I don't have a bread machine and don't plan on buying one anytime soon so I have to do everything kind of old school. At this point I just want a nice and easy yeast bread roll recipe that will work for me. :(

I'm going to try again tonight to make another batch but with a different recipe. I want to use the Mrs Ms one but it calls for using a bread machine. Can I do it without the machine?

Again thank everyone one soooooo much for all the help

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• Reply by Mike Nolan on February 25, 2012 at 4:05 pm
• 

If that recipe is too big for your mixer, you could cut it in half.

As to not knowing what the dough should look or feel like, we've all been there, it just takes time, which is why taking notes is always a good idea.

Part of what you're doing is training your eyes and hands, so that you'll know when you need to make small adjustments.

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• Reply by sandra Alicante on February 25, 2012 at 6:07 pm
• 

You can easily do most bread machine recipes either totally by hand or in a mixer - however, since you are a novice, I suggest you try a recipe not meant to be done in a bread machine, so that you get better instruction than 'put it in the bowl and switch on' - if you get my drift!

I also suggest you go for a simple, straight forward recipe for white bread, that is done by weight. As many postings on this site will verify, there is room for great variation in cup measures, depending on not only you, but the brand of flour, how damp it is etc.
I think doing rolls is easier for a novice because it is easier to judge the proofing size, and you are not likely to under bake rolls, the baking time is short. Also, they give you practice in shaping, developing that smooth skin to encase the crumb. With a roll recipe, if your dough is a bit soft, you will possibly get flatter rolls but they will still be ok.

This is my standard recipe,
It's plain, simple and gives good results. Just make sure you use a good bread flour and you should be fine.

http://www.sandrascookbook.com/recipe.php?id=62

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• Reply by skeptic7 on February 25, 2012 at 6:53 pm
• 

Good luck with your next attempt. If you are doing it by hand, knead the dough until when you punch it, the impression immediately bounces back. Add only enough flour as you knead to make it more manageable. If you think you have kneaded in too much flour add water a tablespoon at a time.
Here is a couple of explanations for your original recipe.
"A medium batter" in your original recipe is about the consistency of a cake batter. It can still be stirred with a whisk or a spoon. Probably a little thicker than pancake batter and thinner than muffin batter. "Let stand until light and foamy" refers to leaving the batter alone and letting the yeast grow. It should have visible bubbles and air pockets. This will probably take half an hour to an hour. This is the sponge part of a bread dough, also called preferment or poolish.

A soft dough is still rather wet, but its hard to stir with a wooden spoon. It will be easier at this point to knead any additional ingredients in by hand. A stiff dough will hold the wooden spoon upright.
"Knead dough until smooth and satiny". This will take about 15 - 30 minutes by hand. Add additional flour to keep hands from sticking. The dough should feel like an earlobe and not stick to your hands or the kneading board.. If its sticking to your hands in a gooey mess it needs more flour. If its only slightly sticky try buttering your hands and the board and kneading some more. If you get tired of kneading half way through, cover the dough and leave it for 10 minutes then knead some more. The rest period will let the gluten relax and make it easier to knead.
If you want to try this recipe again, try doing a half portion. That will be easier to handle. The original recipe has enough flour for two and a half loaves of bread.
There are some instructions for beginners on the King Arthur Site.

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• Reply by mrscindy on February 25, 2012 at 8:31 pm
• 

laswanson87, the link below will take you to KAF's Soft White Dinner Rolls recipe. This is a simple, straightforward recipe that you can do by hand. Try this recipe. We can help you with getting the correct weight for all the ingredients. If you have a problem with this recipe, we can help you.

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/soft-white-dinner-rolls-recipe

MrsM's rolls can be done by hand, but since this above recipe is already written for hand kneading, it would be best to start with this recipe.

Let us know if you need help.

~Cindy

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• Reply by laswanson87 on February 28, 2012 at 3:15 am
• 

Well, I got edible rolls this time lol but they were still kind of tough I think I over worked them and the texture wasn't what I was hoping for but they could be eaten. I HUGE improvement over my last couple of attempts. I want to try to make them into sweet rolls eventually but right now I'm afraid to edit the recipe.

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• Reply by skeptic7 on February 28, 2012 at 10:11 am
• 

Congratulations on an improved batch! Are you doing a different recipe or the original recipe? What was it like to make the rolls? The recipe that Mrs. Cindy recommended to you would be slightly softer.
More butter in the dough will make a softer roll.

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• Reply by Mike Nolan on February 28, 2012 at 10:41 am
• 

If you want to make sweet rolls, you might be better off looking for a different recipe than trying to adapt that recipe.

What kind of sweet rolls are you after, there are lots of variants out there?

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• Reply by laswanson87 on February 29, 2012 at 12:45 am
• 

It's silly but I really want to try to get ones that taste like the golden corral rolls or the texas road house rolls. That's the end goal anyways.

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• Reply by skeptic7 on February 29, 2012 at 1:54 am
• 

I remember the Golden Corral rolls as being a very soft, slightly sweet white roll, its been a while I could be wrong. Your recipe has so little butter its more like a hard French roll, except for the sugar. If you want to continue with your recipe, try doing only a half recipe. It would be equally valuable to experiment with and much easier to handle, especially when kneading. Don't even try to use all the flour called for in the recipe.
I just made Hot cross buns, in which the recipe said to use 5 1/2 - 6 1/2 cups flour and I used just over 4 cups. This called for two eggs, 1 1/4 cup milk and 3 tablespoons of butter for the liquid. I have made this recipe before and sometimes I use almost all the flour, probably the dryness of the air made the difference.

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• Reply by Mike Nolan on February 29, 2012 at 9:45 am
• 

I haven't been to a Texas Road House in a while, but the Golden Corral rolls are pretty good. I suspect they are a fairly basic dinner roll recipe, with some honey in them. I know for sure that they are glazed with honey butter as they come out of the oven, because I've watched the bakers do it.

This might be a good starting point, substituting honey for the sugar.

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/soft-white-dinner-rolls-recipe

You could also try a half-batch of the recipe you're using with honey.

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• Reply by mrscindy on February 29, 2012 at 10:53 am
• 

There is a Golden Corral right down the street from us and, like Mike said, they rub honey/butter over the top when they come out of the oven.

They are also baking these rolls in huge quantities and have ingredient available to them that you do not have. I suspect they use a different type of shortening because the cost of using butter would be prohibitive. They also, probably, use powdered honey. There are several recipes you could tweak to get very, very close to their recipe, but keep in mind that they are baking in massive quantities and using professionally available ingredients.

I wonder if emulsified shortening comes in butter flavor? That might be worth looking into. Only because of the softness/moistness trait it would lend. Does anyone know?

~Cindy
p.s. also keep in mind, they don't care about the 'keeping' quality of these rolls. They expect them to be eaten within minutes of coming out of the oven. They are not going to freeze them or worry about staling. This will dictate, to some extent, what ingredients they use.
~C

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• Reply by Mike Nolan on February 29, 2012 at 11:09 am
• 

That's a good point on the shelf life of the rolls, I've seen the manager pull them if they were sitting on the rack for more than an hour.

I don't see any butter flavored emulsified shortenings out there, but is that really needed, these aren't really sweet rolls, they're dinner rolls?

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• Reply by mrscindy on February 29, 2012 at 1:34 pm
• 

I know, Mike, but I was just wondering how they get around cost of the butter. Maybe using a butter flavored margarine? If you really want to exactly duplicate the recipe, you would need to use the same ingredients.

~Cindy

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• Reply by Mike Nolan on February 29, 2012 at 1:58 pm
• 

I wouldn't want to bet that they use any butter in the dough, and they may use a butter-flavored margarine/oil with the honey on top, too.

As to duplicating their recipe, I know a teacher who took his students on a tour of a large-scale white bread factory (calling it a bakery is folly.)

At one point, they gave them a copy of the 'recipe'.

The first ingredient was: 2 carloads of flour.

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• Reply by laswanson87 on March 01, 2012 at 1:29 am
• 

lol car loads. I know getting an exact isn't going to happen but I really love how the rolls are sweet and soft and puffy. Texas roadhouse rolls are even sweeter than the corral ones. Will switching honey for sugar kill the yeast or something?

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• Reply by Mike Nolan on March 01, 2012 at 1:51 am
• 

It shouldn't affect the yeast much. I make a honey wheat bread that has 1/3 cup of honey in about 6 cups of flour, and recently I wound up using over 1/2 cup because the top fell off the honey container, and it still rose just fine.

A really sweet dough would have even more sugar/honey than that.

There's a point at which an osmotolerant yeast (one that works well in a sweet dough) like SAF Gold would probably work better, I was probably getting close to that point on that batch.

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